never having been to NYC, I'd always thought it was pronounced HUE-ston. I take it that the locals say HOUSE-ton?

Yes they do, and the other (Texas-style) pronunciation is a sure mark of an out-of-towner. And, though it's probably obvious, the local pronunciation of the expressway is BRUCK-ner. While we're at it, only out-of-towners say "Greenwich Village" (locals say "the Village"), and most locals still refer to "Sixth Avenue" rather than the official "Avenue of the Americas."

Opinions may vary on what to do with the w in Greenwich--perhaps that's why it's not said. Also, doesn't the Avenue of the Americas still become Sixth Avenue for stretches?

cc: Australian Broadcasting Corporation (who decreed a few years ago that the name of Australia's highest mountain should be pronounced 'Ka-shush-ko' instead of the long-established 'Kozzie-oss-ko')

This also reminded me of two Massachusetts towns. First, the town of Amherst, where I twice lived, in which the locals say "am-merst" and the non-locals "am-herst." Second, my friends' town of Quincy. It's "Quin-zy" to locals and "Quince-ey" to non-locals. With or without Boston or New England accents, these differences are good indicators of who's a native (or at least in the know) and who's an interloper.

Virtually every other town in Massachusetts is pronounced oddly.

Gloucester -> "Glosster"
Leominster -> "Luhminster"
Woburn -> "Wooburn"
Falmouth -> "Falmuth"
Massachusetts -> "this fawkin' place"

Miami, Oklahoma is pronounced 'my-AM-uh.'

You're right about HOUSE-ton. I was a lifelong New Yorker before relocating to Rhode Island, where, practically evverything on the West Bay is unintelligeable, but it's an accent thing. Many locals say "CVAN-stin" instead of "Cranston", and even "VAW-vik", rather than "Warwick". I don't offhand recall any place names with particularly idiosyncratic pronunciation (barring accents), but I've always been baffled by the pronunciation of a sausage which is popular locally: "Chorizo", pronounced "Cherise". Watch yourself over breakfast or you'll mark yourself as a rube.

Etobicoke, a suburb of Toronto, is pronounced by locals as Etobico (that is, with a silent -ke).

Keep 'em coming, folks, I'm annotating my Geographical Dictionary assiduously!

In Missouri, we have Milan (MY-lun), Versailles (ver-SAILS), and Auxvasse (no one really knows for sure, including the locals, but oxVOSSy seems to be a popular choice). My personal favorite, however, would have to be Rolla, Missouri, which was named after Sir Walter Raleigh, but by the time the town incorporated the pronunciation had degraded.

Clement Street in San Francisco is iambic. Suisun is (I believe) roughly /sU `su:n/. But California probably has fewer than its fair share of unexpected pronunciations because of the high population of immigrants like me (from Illinois).

You can pronounce it the Russian way, Kos-TYU-shko.

A park near my house is called "Chinguacousy Park", but most locals call it "Chingcousy". I never figured out why, and have always referred to it as "Ching-ga-cousy", just to be contrary.

There's a range called the Shawangunk Mountains in New York State (Ulster Co.); it's well known for good hiking and climbing, and enthusiasts affectionately refer to "the Gunks" when they're not saying sha-WAN-gunk in full. Locals, however, say SHON-gum.

The entire rest of the country mispronunciates Oregon, saying it "Or-ee-gone." It's prounced "Or-a-gun," as in "the next time someone corrects my pronunciation, should I kill them with a knife or a gun?"

I don't know how I missed the comments to this note.

Anyway, nearly all the towns named after foreign cities that are in Illinois have mispronounced names. I live near Vienna (VIE-an-nuh, as in the word "vie"), Cairo ("KEH-roh") is south of us, then there's New Berlin ("BUR-lin"), and Athens (EI-thens, like the word "eight").

In Winston-Salem, North Carolina, there is a major avenue called Buena Vista ("byuna vihsta") and another one of those neighborhoods pronounced VYE-enna after someplace in Austria. What really gets outsiders, though, is trying to pronounce the suburb of Pfafftown ("pofftown"), since all the other German Pf names are pronounced with silent ps.

I can handle those, but new placenames are more difficult: during a recent excursion to St. Louis, I had trouble dealing with the suburb of Creve Coeur ("creeve cur") and the neighborhood (after a major street) of DeBaliviere ("deBALLiver").

Not nearly so exciting, since it doesn't refer to NYC or anyplace else 'back east', but here in Sacramento, CA, we have a large local park 'Goethe Park', which is pronounced 'GAY-tee' rather than the German 'GER-teh'.

My ex-Missourian relations all tell me it's pronounced 'mi-ZUR-ah', not 'mi-ZUR-ee'. So bear that in mind. :)

I'm a born Virginian but I grew up in California. So when I ended up back here and I pronounced "Fauquier County" as foh-kee-ay instead of faw-KEER, well, I've not yet lived it down.

I grew up in Charleston, South Carolina, where a few things aren't quite as they seem. Legare Street downtown is "luh-GREE". Vanderhorst Street is "VAN-dross". Huger Street is "YOU-gee."

CGHill, I think those win the prize. I stand in awe of Charleston, SC.

Indiana is full of similar names, including a Kosciusko County (pronounced variously as already mentioned, or as "ka-zee-AH-sko," which one is most likely to hear). Others are Dubois County (doo-BOYS), and an alleged pronounciation of Peru, IN, as "PEE-roo." Some people also say Miami as "My-muh" (or close to it). The basketball team made famous in the film "Hoosiers" is from Milan (MY-lin). Finally, I've heard people say, perhaps half-kidding, "Terry Hut" for Terre Haute.

Well, Naomi beat me to Buena Vista, etc., so I'll mention nearby Sauratown Mountain, which almost always turns into "Sourtown".

There are a lot of them in South Carolina (there's even a handy little book called "Correct Mispronunciations of Some South Carolina Names"). For example:

Valhalla, S.C. is "Wol-holler." One of the main streets in my hometown is McBee Avenue. Foreigners say "Mic-BEE"; locals know it's "MAC-by." And the really tricky one is: if "Beaufort" is pronounced as "Bo-fort" you're in North Carolina, while if you hear "Byeu-fert" you're in South Carolina (both towns are named for the same Lord Proprietor, by the way).

Having lived in Michigan, Illinois, Missouri, Texas, California, and New Hampshire, I can offer the following local pronunciations:

Houston is pronounced EEU-stuhn or YOO-stuhn by the natives, of which there are not many :-) . The initial "H" is almost silent. They also say "AWL" for "oil", "GUFF" for "Gulf", and "BAH-yoh" for "bayou" (instead of Bi-Yoo as in Louisiana). Therefore, you have Guff Awl stations in YOO-ston next to the BAH-yoh.

The perennial debate about pronouncing "Missouri" continues. The rural folk in the northern and central portions say "Muh-ZOOR-uh" while the cities (STL and KC) say "Mi-ZOOR-ee". The Ozark folks in the south they seem to be split half and half. The name comes from the Peoria Indians of central Illinois, who were hosting Fr. Joliet from France. He wrote "Ouemessourit" in his notes. Lewis and Clark wrote "Missourie" in their notes, and so historically the "Mi-ZOOR-ee" pronunciation actually appears to be more correct. Try telling that to my in-laws in northern "Muh-ZOOR-uh" though...

Ozark is a misspelling of French "Aux Arc" meaning Curved Bows. It's pronounced the same with either spelling!

Nevada, Missouri is pronounced "Neh-VAY-duh, Muh-ZOOR-uh".
El Dorado Springs is "El Dor-AY-do".
La Plata, where my wife went to High School, is La PLAY-tuh, Muh-ZOOR-uh.

And, yes, Rolla, MO is RAHL-uh.

Creve Coeur, MO is pronounced "Creev Coor" like the beer (Coor's) or "Creev Core" like an apple core.
Des Peres, just south of Creve Coeur, like Des Moines, is "Deh Pair", both occurrences of "s" are silent. But Des Plaines, IL is "Dehzzz Planezzz" and you are really supposed to lay into the "zzz".

Springfield, MO has an Ozark twang and sounds more like "SPRANG-fuhld".
Springfield, IL is pronounced as you would expect: Spring-field.

But Oregon, IL is "AWW-reh-gahn" and Morris, IL is pronounced "MAW-riss".

I have heard people from certain ethnic neighborhoods in Chicago say "Shih-KAWW-go ELL-noyzz".

Salina, Kansas is Suh-LYE-nuh, but Salinas, California is Suh-LEE-nuss.

People on the East Coast think Sacramento, CA is "sack-ruh-MENT-oh", but with the California accent, it's actually SACK-ruh-men-to with only a very slight "t" sound at the end, almost like SACK-ruh-men-no. Likewise, San Franciso is not "San Fran-SIS-ko" but "SAN Fran sis ko" with the accent up front.

Milwaukee does not have 3 syllables, it's more like M'WAW-kee with 2 or 2.5 syllables!?!

I've heard that Iowa is really supposed to be pronounced I-O-WAY. The story goes that some radio announcer in New York City in the 1920's imposed his own pronunciation of I-O-Wuh. Even people in Iowa, hearing it on the radio, thought that only their town pronounced it I-O-WAY, and that everyone else said "I-O-Wuh", so the false pronunciation stuck. Nowadays, Iowans reserve the correct pronunciation for themselves whenever they want to use it for emphasis, but we outsiders are not allowed to use it.

I've heard that in Kansas, the Arkansas River is pronounced Ar-KAN-zuss, emphasizing the "Kansas". Of course, in the state of Arkansas, it's AR-kan-SAW.

To add a bit more in Illinois, there are the towns of Marsailles (mar-SAILS), Elgin (ELL-jin, instead of with a hard /g/), Pekin (PEE-kin, whose high school teams were the "Pekin Chinks" up until the early '80s) and, in Chicago, Devon Avenue (pronounced duh-VAHN), the first stop for many new Russian, Indian and Pakistani immigrants. My British coworkers used to find the pronunciation of Devon particularly annoying.

Chiming in for the state of Maine, here. But first (with apologies to Ogden Nash, who I think wrote this):

People who call a
City La Jolla
Are sure to annoy ya
If you live in La Jolla.

Maine has its fair share of mispronounced place names, most but not all of them French: Corea ("ko-REE-ur," as opposed to career "ca-REE-uh"); Presque Isle ("PRESS-kyle"); Calais ("CAL-luss"). The local shibboleth is "Mt. Desert Island" where Acadia National Park is: it's pronounced "Mount dess-ERT," as Samuel de Champlain named it when he sailed by and noted its barren treeless crowns. That same final T (could it be historical?) sometimes sounds in the name of the island where we have a "camp," Isle au Haut, generally pronounced as "Aisle-uh-ho' " these days, with the t as an unvoiced stop at the end. This island was also named by Champlain, for being the highest island on what is now called Fisherman's Row. There is a verse about this pronunciation issue ("for the French of Paris was to her unknowe"):

The summer man says as the fog hangs low,
"There's a bridal veil on Isle au Haut."
But the fisherman says as he loads his boat,
"It's thick-a-fog on Isle au Haut."

City of Puyallup, in Washington State. Looks sort of like it might be pronounced "py-AL-up", with the first syllable rhyming with "buy". Correct pronunciation is "Pyoo-AL-up". Yes, that's "pyoo".

Lots of Native American place-names around here that defy intuitive pronunciation. For that matter, if Seattle wasn't a sizable, well-known city, more people might try to pronounce it "SEET-ul", instead of "see-AT-ul".

Despite what some have said on these pages, we Oregonians are unanimous in pronouncing the name of our state "Or-y-gun" with the emphasis on the first syllable and very little emphasis on the las syllable (so it's actually almost "Or-y-gn". NOT Or-a-gun, not Or-gun, and most decidedly NOT Or-i-gone or Or-uh-gone.

See, that's why I refuse to close this entry to comments despite the occasional spam infestation. Thanks for the input!

I wasn't going to comment, but I see the most recent is April, so what the hell:

In Toronto, besides the aforementioned eh-TOE-bih-coh (Etobicoke), there are a few things you have to modify to not be looked at strangely...

Bloor St is Blohr, not Blur.

Dundas St is DUN-DASS -- The final s is important, but the stresses are pretty much the same on both syllables. Not DUN-das. Not dun-DAS.

Eglinton Avenue is EG-ling-ton.

And although it is pretty straightforward, some people might attempt to put some weird spin on Spadina Avenue and Spadina Road. It's just spa-DYE-nah.

I think Blohr and Dun-Dass are the two most important to get right, but hard to know right away.

Nothing really beats Pacific Northwest places names, though, like Puyallup as already mentioned, and Sequim WA is actually 'SQUIM'.

Chehalis WA is she-hay-lis, not quite as tricky, but still a little confusing.

Oh, and Alki, the west bit of West Seattle, is Al-Kye, not Al-kee (I assumed it was Al-kee for some reason.)

All done now.

Many thanks, Mike -- I knew some of those, but not the Toronto ones! I never would have known to say "blohr."

In San Francisco, we can tell the outlanders by their read on Gough Street. Most often we hear Go Street - as in dough, but then we sometimes get Guff Street - as in rough, not to mention the occasional Goo Street - as in through.

In fact, it's pronounced Goff Street as in cough.

By the way, I always pronounced it KoSHUUshko, while someone tried to correct me into pronouncing it Kos-ki-YUS-ko.. and really I knew a street in Russia as Kos-TYU-shko (believe someone posted that before).
I do get a kick out of HOUS-ton street :) Besides the village we also say NY City or The City instead of Manhattan.
But I always wondered if Van Wyck Expwy was Wick (as in stick) or Wike (as in bike)
and how about Kearny in NJ - I thought pronouncing it KAHR-nee was weird.
THANKS FOR THE TORONTO ONES! I just moved to Toronto from NYC and it's fun trying not to mess up the names. Yonge is just like younge, right? not YOHNG?
as for Spadina, that reminds me of Regina, and uhmm, the first time I heard that in the fast conversation, uhmm, I was shocked... :)

But I always wondered if Van Wyck Expwy was Wick (as in stick) or Wike (as in bike)

I'm still wondering that, after 23 years in NYC. Every time I think I've figured it out, I hear somebody who's clearly local say it the other way. I think it's one of those rare place names with more than one acceptable local pronunciation.

So how do you like Tronna?

The captain of my Coast Guard cutter, based on Governors Island, related the story of how Houston St.'s local pronunciation came from the German for "little houses". Some time later, after coming across the truth in a street-name dictionary, I was able to inform him that this tale was not only false, but was over 100 years old and just wouldn't die. (That was back in the '70s, so now it's over 125 years.) It's actually named after William Houstoun, a Georgian in the Constitutional Congress and Constitutional Convention. There is a Houston County in Georgia with the same pronunciation-- as it should have, as it was named after William's brother, Gov. John Houstoun.

Here in the Twin Cities we have a number of suburbs whose names are there to trap outsiders: Wayzata, Shakopee, Mahtomedi, Willernie. They go wye-ZAT-uh, SHOCK-upee, modda-ME-dye and (so I've been told) WILL-urnee. And speaking of all the Koscius(z)kos, his contemporary and fellow Pole Pulaski's namesake town in New York gets a final syllable like the English word "sky". I always wondered if any of the other Pulaskis did that.

Well Australia's tallest mountain is Mount Kosciusko and it's pronounced thus:
IPA: /kɒziˈɒskeə/
SAMPA: /kQzi"Qsk@U/
American Dictionary: kŏ-zi-ŏs'kō

>My personal favorite, however, would have to be >Rolla, Missouri, which was named after Sir >Walter Raleigh, but by the time the town >incorporated the pronunciation had degraded.

Not degraded that much - in Walter's time it would have been pronounced Raw-lay. So Rolla is probably closer than the current Raah-lay

I grew up in Iowa, and was always painfully aware of town and place names in Iowa that took their names from other places in the world, but whose "Iowan" names are pronounced in their own, special Iowan way. This is similar to a lot of the names people listed above for Illinois, Missouri, NC and other states. For example:

Tripoli (pronounced Tri-PO-luh)
Buena Vista County (pronounced BYEW-nuh VIS-ta)
Madrid (pronounced MAD-rid)

And of course, the great capital of Iowa, Des Moines (pronounced Duh-MOYN)

There are other weird pronunciations that I can't recall right now. However, I'd have to add that I rarely if ever heard anyone pronounce the state's name I-O-WAY. I'd be interested in speaking to some people around my grandmothers' age to see whether it was often pronounced that way when they were kids, and if so, when that fell by the wayside. If I ever heard I-O-WAY, I'd assume the speaker was being sort of facetious.

Tri-PO-luh is new to me -- thanks for continuing this fascinating thread! (My mother was from Iowa, and I never heard anyone seriously say "Ioway" either.)

Living in Missouri is a constant source of consternation for me. First of all, there is the pronunciation of the state's name itself. The commonly-accepted pronunciation is, of course "miss-SOR-ee." Locals, however, insist on calling it "miss-SOR-uh" or "miss-SOR-ah." I could easily overlook this if it was some barefoot dirt farmer in John Deere coveralls. But it's really annoying to hear local newscasters and politicians use it. Supposedly, these are intelligent, educated individuals. What makes it worse is when you can tell they're simply pronouncing it that way to "reach out to the common man."

Rolla and New Madrid, Missouri have already been mentioned. Another one is Cairo, Illinois. One would expect this to be pronounced as "KAI-roh".. like in Egypt. At the very least, it could be "KAIR-oh".. like in "hair." But, it is pronounced "KAY-roh".. like the corn syrup.

Another thing that perplexes me is all of the abused French in St. Louis. The best example is Gravois Road. Based on basic French pronunciation, it seems to me this would be "grav-WAH." After all, "mois" is "MWAH." But, somehow, Missourians have turned it into "gra-VEE." O.o

Admittedly, however, I don't know French, so I could be way off.

Please, I need the pronunciation of the town name
"Stockerau"

Thanks,

Wanda

If you're talking about the Austrian city, it's SHTAWK-e-row (with -ow as in how).

German doesn't make out much better in St. Louis: Spoede Road is spay-dee, as I recall.

Arab, AL, i'm told is pron. A-rab rather than AIR-rub.

Toronto is sometimes pron. TRUN-nuh (2 syllables).

n Strachan St, Toronto, is pron. STRON.

Worcester, MA is pronounced "WIST ah." And if you pronounce it correctly, folks there will think you're WICKED PISSA.

As a former Floridian, it's always fun to hear tourists pronounce "Kissimmee" as KISS-a-mee. If you're heading for Disney World, be warned: the correct local way is ki-SIM-ee. And if you've driving down, I'll let you have your own fun with Micanopy GA.

Now I'm in Connecticut where we have the aforementioned Greenwich (GRE-nich), Berlin (BUR-len), Darien (dair-ee-YEN) and Coventry (CAH-ven-tree). But I'm still not altogether sure what to do with Poquonock.

"As a former Floridian,...I'll let you have your own fun with Micanopy GA."

Not to mention Micanopy, Florida (MICK-uh-noh-pee). A favorite of mine is Alachua, the county (where I used to live) is Uh-LATCH-ua/wuh, while the town is Uh-LATCH-away.

Having lived my first 30 years in Los Angeles county, the next 10 in Sacramento, but now residing in Columbia, Missouri, I hear pronunciations I never knew existed in the "outside world".

LA area --
Cahuenga (ka-WAYNG-a) Blvd. runs north-south between Hollywood and the San Fernando Valley (The Valley) near Universal Studios.
A little west of that in The Valley is Tujunga (ta-HUNG-a) Blvd.

Sacramento area --
About a half-hour drive south of the capitol is a very popular area for skydiving and a growing wine making industry. When an event in Lodi, CA was described by a reporter at the local university-owned Missouri TV station as occurring in "low-DEE", I almost choked. The locals know it is "LOW-die".
A few weeks later, another young reporter-in-training tried to describe a fire in the Sierra Nevada foothills as being near "PLAY-sir-vill". Most any native of the northern half of CA (Governor obviously gets excluded), will know that Placerville (PLASS-ur-vill) is a waypoint on the highway to the skiing and gambling of South Lake Tahoe.

Mid-Missouri --
Besides the constant -ee vs. -ah inconsistency between radio and TV news reporters, there is the aforementioned Auxvasse that even causes different pronunciation from the same person. I've heard the same weather guy call it "ah-VASS" and "ox-VASE".

Hi!

We just came across this cool webpage and we would like to know if there is an actual website for pronunciations of cities in the US and Canada. It would really be a great help to us if you could direct us to that website as Merriem-Webster Online doesn't have the pronunciations for all the cities in the US, let alone Canada.

Thanks a lot!

Cindy Ramirez

I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be one (I'd like one too). This page seems to indicate that M-W Online is the best resource available online. I can only suggest you invest in a copy of the M-W Geographical Dictionary, which I like so much I have three separate editions!

Hi again!

I would like to ask for help on how to pronounce the following city names: OCOEE and OGALLALA. Thanks and keep up the good work!

P.S. Am still in the process of getting the Geographical Dictionary that you suggested. =)

Cindy Ramirez

Language Hat, are you sorry you started this thread-that-won't-die more than two years ago?

I found my way here researching the pronunciation of "Greenwich." I read something elsewhere that indicated that in England the "correct" speakers don't say "GREN-itch" after all. I was shocked. Shocked. We have a Greenwich Street in Portland, Ore., and folks here seem to go both ways. I say "gren-itch," but most say "green-witch." Now I don't know what to think.

Other place names from Portland and Oregon that haven't been noted in this discussion, but that are shibboleths for the many folks who've moved here from elsewhere (and some locals!) are...

- Willamette River: newbies say "WILL-uh-met," but it's "will-AH-mit" (that's a long, flat A sound like in "hat")
- Couch Street: recent arrivals think it's "cowch," but it's "cooch" -- gotcha!
- Tigard, a small town (suburb) outside Portland: some people unaccountably want to call it "tigg-erd," but it's "TYE-gerd"
- Tualatin, another small town/suburb of Portand: it's pronounced "too-AW-luht-un" (with the second T swallowed)
- Abiqua (lake, falls, creek) in Central Oregon: Having never been there and being a French speaker, I called it "uh-BEEK-uh" to a friend from those parts and he roundly mocked me. Turns out it's "ah-bih-KWAW" (again, that first A is flat as in hat).
- Multnomah County (where Portland sits): isn't it obvious? "mult-NO-muh"
- Albina, a Portland neighborhood: pronounced "al-BYE-nuh"
- Malheur County: oui, we also know how to mutilate French words in Oregon: this is pronounced "MAL-hyur" (flat A)

Thanks for this and the links to French and other language sites.

Sorry? Au contraire! This is one of my favorite threads (and one of the reasons I won't just close off commenting on old threads, despite the comment-spam problem) -- I keep learning new things. I thank you for your primer on Portland/Oregon shibboleths; I knew Willamette and Multnomah, but I would never have guessed some of the others (cooch? cool!).

As for Greenwich, the old-fashioned Brits say GRIN-idj; I don't think anybody in the UK says GREEN-wich, but I could be wrong. What did your something elsewhere say?

I enjoy this thread, too. I came here to settle a discussion of how to pronounce Houston in New York (I was right!).

In Massachusetts the town of Peabody is pronounced "PEA-buh-dee" not "PEA-bawdy"; Chelmsford is pronounced "Chems-furd" (very Brahmin, you know.) Dorchester locals live in "Dot".

And then there's CHARGOGGAGOGGMANCHAUGGAUGGAGOGGCHAUBUNAGUNGAMAUGG, also known as Lake Webster. (A little Native American history: http://www.colapcentral.org/webster-lake.htm)

How is Calais pronounced in England?

Unlike rj way up there, I've never heard SANfrancisco or SACramenno. It's sãf'r'SISco and sacraMEN'o. But I've only lived here for twenty years.

Calais in England is CAL-ay (to rhyme with "way").

I also have never heard Greenwich referred to as anything other than GREN-ich or GRIN-ich.

I love this thread...I entered looking for how to pronounce the Van Wyck in NY and unfortunately am no closer to an answer! But being an Illinois native I had to throw one in. Claude Bourbonnais explored the area around the Kankakee river and settled a town there which is named in his honor. However, the locals have concocted the pronunciation Ber-BONE-is. Even the signs going into town have a phonetic spelling of the word and it persists.

That's great, and I can't find any reference to it online, so you've contributed to the store of knowledge we call the internet! (I've added it to my geographical dictionary as well.)

As I said somewhere upthread, either /wik/ or /wayk/ is acceptable for the expressway, and you can tell them I said so.

One of the most interesting place names that comes to my mind when it comes to confusion of pronunciation is that of the Thames River in London, England. So far, I've heard it pronounced in three ways. Half the time, I've heard it pronounced "Tems", while other times, it was pronounced more like "Tames". But most recently I read that the original pronunciation of the name of this river is "Thaymes". Many people have told me that "Tems" is the only way that it is correctly pronounced, but I can tell you, that's definitely debatable. If "Thaymes" was the original, and thus was the correct pronunciation, how in this world did it change from "Thaymes" to "Tems"? It seems this is an unsolved mystery. Was it a British thing? Was it an American Thing? What is the story behind this confusion of pronunciation?

I read that the original pronunciation of the name of this river is "Thaymes".

Your source was wrong. There was never a /th/ sound in the word; the Roman name was Tamesis, from a Celtic name also preserved in the rivers Tame and Tamar. The h was added in a fit of Renaissance pseudo-etymologizing. In England it's always /temz/.

I believe the Thames River in Connecticut is pronounced /theymz/, but that of course is simple spelling pronunciation, like /menziyz/ for Menzies and /keytlin/ for Caitlin.

Again linking an old thread with another old thread, "Mi-ZOOR-ee" speakers from St. Louis might well refer (disparagingly) to "Muh-ZOOR-uh" speakers as "Hoosiers".

I just bought some property in Union County Georgia and the place is called Choestoe Falls. It is a Cherokee name for dancing rabbits. I have seen it phonetically spelled out cho-wy-sto-wy but that doesn't help me to pronounce it. Any help would be appreciated.

I presume your source is this page, which says "His home area Choestoe... is a Cherokee word (pronounced 'cho-wy sto-wy') that is poetry itself in two languages..." To me that implies that both halves of the name rhyme with "Joey," if that helps. The only other source I've found is this, which says "a little valley of Union County that was known as Choestoe [pronounced CHOESTOE]," which isn't at all helpful. It's certainly not a transparent spelling!

O.K., O.K., I can't help myself. It seems there are only two "Eugenes" in the U.S. The first being the tiny central Missouri (pronounced, for once and for all, "Mi-zoor-ee") railroad town of EWE-gene and the rather large Oregon enclave of expatriate unreformed California hippies and treehuggers, yuh-GENE. The latter sounds oh, so sophisticated! So west coast cool! Actually the dwindling number of residents of Eugene, Missouri decided a few years ago to disincorporate. This leaves me, technically, without a home to which to return. Sort of a "man without a country". Since it doesn't exist, I'm emboldened to call it whatever I choose--so it shall be, now and forever, "yuh-GENE".

Alan
St. Louis

I've picked up a few over the years:

Haverhill, Mass - HAY vr'll
Lima, Ohio - LIE muh
Towson, Md - TOW son (rhymes with now)
Dothan, AL - DOE thn
Prescott, AZ - PRESS cut
Peabody, Mass - PEE b'dee
Natchitoches, La - NACK uh dish
Canon City, Colo - Canyon
Newark, Del - NEW ark
Immokalee, Fla - im OHK uh lee
Coeur d'Alene, Ida - core d'LANE

Some small towns around Austin:
Manchaca - MAN shack
Boerne - BUR nee
Seguin - suh GEEN
New Braunfels - BRAHN f'lz

Some streets in Detroit:
Gratiot - GRAY shut
Dequindre - duh QUIN der
Shoenherr - SHAY ner

And, trying to render the Baltimore accent accurately, you drive out Belair Road (pronounced, or, in Baltimore, pronunciated, Blair Rayode) to get to the town of Bel Air (BELL-WAIR, run together). The Baltimore accent can keep one busy for a long time. (Wrench the dishes off in cold wooder in the kitchen zinc.)

And that's all I've got to say about that.

If you are interested in Champlain Samuel, please visit my blog: http://whatsnewtoday11.blogspot.com

To add to Scott's comment on strange local pronunciations of town names in Central Texas, Gruene is pronounced Green (instead of the German GRÜN-eh). New Braunfels, in addition to the pronunciation provided by Scott, is often pronounced New BRAHNZ-fl. I regard this last pronunciation as a mispronunciation of a mispronunciation, but it's extremely common.

Oh, central Texas is wonderful for throw-you-a-curve town names.

Manor = MAIN-er
Elgin = ELL-gin
Grosvenor = gross-VEE-ner

and Guadalupe Street in Austin is pronounced "GWAD-a-loop."

Hello. I found this site looking for the correct pronunciation of "Thames". I have found in England, that "temz" is the correct pronunciation. What about a street name in Panama City, FL? I say "temz", also, but my school-aged children are correcting me. they are telling me that it is pronounced "Theymz" We also have a debate going on in my house ( and school) about how "cay" in the book "The Cay" is pronounced. I have written to a couple different sources, but have not gotten any responses back. I know from the dictionary, that "kay" and "key" are both correct, but how does the author pronounce it? Anyone know?????
thanks!
sam

In England it's "temz," but in America it's usually "thaymz" (for local names, I mean, not the river in London). But you'd have to ask someone from Panama City to be sure about the local pronunciation. (I just checked Google Maps for Panama City, by the way, and it can't find a "Thames St." -- are you sure you've got the city right?)

Cay is pronounced "key" in the Caribbean.

OH_!!! and Kosiusko in Mississippi is "kaw-zee-ESS-go"

Thanks language hat...I just looked it up--- It's thames drIVE, not street.

How is Suisun pronounced? Most of the people I ask in Suisun City, CA say "SooSoon" but my nephew insists it is "Sweesun".

Your nephew is wrong. Nobody knows where the Spanish got the word, but it's pronounced suh-SOON.

TO FOLKS RESIDING IN CAIRO:

I reside in Georgia, where we pronounce our Cairo like KAY ROE. Egypt says KY ROE. Webster's Dictionary says the word may also be pronounced KE (as in Fed) ROE. I understand that there are Cairo's in Illinois, Missouri, Nebraska, New York, Ohio, Ontario Canada, and West Virginia.

Would you please e-mail me, letting me know whether your city's name of Cairo is pronounced KAY ROE, OR KY ROE, OR KE ROE?

Thanks.

I found this site while trying to find the correct pronounciation of Kosciusko. I say Kos-kee-OSS-ko and my son informed me it was Koz-ee-oss-ko.
I saw someone mention Peru IN being pronounced PEE-ru and that is how my parents say it but I don't. (it is in the next county over from us)
Another Indiana town is Galveston which is pronounced Gal VESS ton. LaFontaine- pronounced La-FOUN-tain. I remember years ago on the TV show Family Affair when the kids would talk about how they were from Terra Hut- around here we say Terra Hote. Hubby comes from a small town called Lagro or sometimes spelled LaGro. Most of us pronounce it La Gro but some of the old timers say LAY grow and a lot of locals call it Lar go because that is how it gets mispronounced by outsiders.

Great! You've contributed to the accuracy of my Geographical Dictionary; every time I emend it, I feel a little surge of happiness. Be proud of your local pronunciations, people! Don't give in to standardization!

Also, Texas has

Palestine "Pal-ess-TEEN"
Burnett "BURN-it"

Driving through Lousiana gives you this gem:

Nachitoches "NACK-tish"

West Virginia has Canaan Valley, pronounced 'kuh-NAIN,' and my hometown of Philippi, pronounced 'FILL-uh-pea.' (The latter is actually not far off the Greek pronunciation, if you use the modern Greek system rather than the Erasmian.)

This list has the town of Elgin, Illinois as "El-jin" rather than with a hard /g/. How is the watch by the same name pronounced?

Are you implying that's wrong? Because my reference books also have /j/. If you live there and know for a fact it's /g/, I'll correct them. Elgin, Scotland, which does have /g/, "was not the immediate origin for the name of Elgin, Illinois, which was inspired by a hymn tune," according to this site.... Aha, and further down that page we see "The only Elgin in the United States to be pronounced with the hard 'g' is located in Texas." Case closed.

The watches come from the Illinois town and thus presumably have its /j/, although I'm sure the Scots and others familiar with the /g/ pronunciation use that.

My job has recently assigned me to handle inbound customer service calls from Missouri, Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas (not to worry, I live in California not off-shore), and I found this thread because of a search for how to pronounce Seguin (suh-GEEN), Texas. Thanks to everyone who has contributed and will make it possible for me to not trip over city and town names.

My own question is this: are there different pronunciations for Chillicothe, TX and OK?

Chillicothe, Texas was named after the Missouri town and is pronounced the same way: chilly-COTH-ee. This is also the pronunciation for the Ohio and Illinois towns; I can't find any information about Chillicothe, OK, but there's no reason to think it would be pronounced differently.

When I first moved to Toronto,I had a hard time with the name of a town just north of us called Stouffville. Locals pronounced it Sto-ville.

The town of Berlin, NH is always pronounced with a strong stress on the first syllable. Outsiders tend to pronounce the name as if it were the German capital. Interestingly I notice from the above comments that Berlin, CT and New Berlin, IL are also pronounced with the stress on the first syllable.

Another infamous trap in NH for outsiders is the Kancamagus highway. Most New Hampshire residents say kan-kuh-MANG-gus, although apparently this is wrong. I have read magazine articles claiming that "locals" say kan-kuh-MAWG-us. Personally I have never heard this pronounciation used but maybe I'm from too far south in the state. Outsiders have been heard to say Kan-ka-may-gus,Kan-KAH-mag-us; kan-MAK-a-jis; or almost anything you can think of.

Texas also has the town Mexia (muh-HAY-uh) and Bexar County, (like Bayer aspirin). There's the town of Italy, pronounced IT-lee, and Rio Vista, pronounced Ryo Vista. IT-lee was hard for me, but I just can't say Ryo Vista.

Thank's to all of you who agree, Missouri does not end in an a.

In Connecticcut we have
Versailles: ver-SAILS
the Thames River: THAYmz
Norwich: NOR'ch
Naugatuck is usually pronounced like it's spelled, but some oldsters call it NOG-id-ick
Barkhamstead: bark-HAM-sted
Berlin: BURR-lin
Wolcott: WOOL-kit
Somers: SUMM-ers (In New York, it's SO-mers)
Clinton: CLI'un
Shelton: SHEL'un

In Massachusetts there's
Worcester: WOOS-tuh
Leicester: LESS-tuh

In Vermont:
Barre: Barry

In Texas:
Refugio: re-FYU-ree-o

SO in england do they say for greenwich

GREEN-WITCH or GREENWICK , i know the spelling is greenwich , but my and my dad are having a dispute over how to say it , so in england the place that boroughs into london , its it greenwitch or greenwick , for the spelling greenwich

Can anyone provide the proper way to pronounce Ogallala?

My grandparents live near a town called Los Gatos (in Spanish pronounced Lohs Gah-tohs, ah as in hot) that all the locals call Loss GAH-diss, ah as in hat.

Confused: neither. The locals call it [ˈgrɛnɪtʃ], "GREN-itch". Wikipedia can be a good resource for this sort of things if you have similar questions in the future.

Barkhamstead: bark-HAM-sted

Correct. My parents live in the next town over. Never even really thought about how odd that pronunciation is until now.

Actually, the Louisiana town of Natchitoches is pronouned "NACK-uh-tish", not, "NACK-tish".

Other LA doozies:

Thibodaux = "TIBB-uh-doe"
Lafayette = "LAFF-yett" for locals,
"Laffy-ETT" for everyone else
Delhi = DELL-hi
Opelousas = Opp-uh-LOOS-us
St. Amant = San-ah-MAW
Maurepas = MAHR-ah-paw
Pierre Part = Pyurr-PAW
Paincourtville = PAIN-ker-vull
Baton Rouge = Batt-n-ROOG(French soft sliding "g")

and finally, there's New Orleans.

Depending on if you're from New Orleans, and then, where you're from in New Orleans, it can be :

NAW-lins,
N'YAW-lins,
N'YAW-lee-uns,
NYAWL-lunn,
Nuh-WALL-ins,
Nuh-WALLY-uns, or others.

For non-New Orleanian Louisianians, it's usually "NEW-OR-lins" or "NEW AH-lins". The pronunciation "New Or-LEENS" is the sole province of non-Louisianians and a dead givaway they aren't from anywhere around here.

To confuse the matter, "Orleans" as in Orleans Parish, is "Or-LEENS". For everybody.

C'est la vie en la Louisianne, cher!

Hope I said that right.

I lived in New Orleans (Noo Ohrlins) for three years recently. That city is king. To wit:

Calliope = Cal-ee-ope
Socrates = So-crates
Carondelet = Car-on-da-let
Freret = Fur-ret
Chartres = Chaw-tes
Burgundy = bur-GUN-dee
Metairie = Met-ree

And after pronouncing all those streets wrong, they nail Tchoupitoulas (Chop-eh-too-las)

Also, in my native Maryland:

Bawlmer or Bawtmur for Baltimore
B'Lair for Bel Air
BER-lynn for Berlin
Merlin for Maryland
Oh-den-ton for Odenton
Boo-whee for Bowie

In Scotland, the country of origin of the name Menzies, it is pronounced 'min-giz' with a hard 'g'.

What is the correct pronunciation of Tybee Island?

Webster's Geographical Dictionary says the first syllable is pronounced like the word tie, so it would be like an instruction "Tie bee [to flower using fine thread]."

In Germany, Berlin is pronounced BEHR-lin, much as the natives of several US cities of that name pronounce their home town. If we prounce the German city Bur-LIN, we are actually wrong. In general, the first syllable is stressed in the German language.

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. There may be individual Germans who pronounce it that way, but the standard German pronunciation has the stress on the second syllable.

I'm a native Missourian, but I have NEVER pronounced it Mizzourah, nor did any of my friends in Kansas City (most of which is in Missouri, incidentally). There's a Missouri City in Texas, near Houston, but it's pronounced with the long e sound at the end.

And Houston Texas is pronounced "HYOOstun" or "YOOstun", not "HOO stun" or "HOUSE ton"

But what do we know? We can't seem to pronounce the simplest hispanic names correctly:

San Jacinto ("juh SINno")
San Felipe ("PHIL uh pee")

It always makes me cringe to hear that.

Jimbo: Yes, that's the shibboleth for Kansas City and Saint Louis. It used to be that the isogloss line going Southwest was more or less the boundary between Saint Louis County and Washington County. It may have moved, but it hasn't gone away. I don't know where it was / is on the other side of the state.

When Claire McCaskill was running for governor, she famously released two ads with different pronunciations for different constituencies. See this page, which mocks her for it, and this old Language Log post, which points what a normal and reasonable thing it is.

Here's an interesting one:

The Wabash (wah-bash) River runs through the state of Indiana, but in Wells County (near Bluffton) there is a state park bearing the French spelling of "Ouabache."

All of the locals refer to the river as the "wah-bash," and the park as "oh-bah-chee."

One more note on my previous comment; the original word in Miami was pronounced something like "Wah-bah-shi-ki."

I had lots of trouble moving from Massachusetts to California, partly because the names based on Native American words are from completely different language groups. Having grown up in the East, I had no problem there with "Schenectady" (Skuh-NECK-ta-dee) or "Mattawamkeag" (Mat-tuh-WOMM-keg). But in California I was completely thrown by "Tuolomne" (Tuh-WALL-uh-mee) and its cousin "Mokelumne" (Muh-KOLL-uh-mee). Not to mention "Cosumnes" (Cuh-SUM-ness).

I noticed at the top a discussion about the pronunciation of Kosciusko. There's a Kosciusko County in Indiana, and everyone I've talked to pronounces it "Koss-ee-oss-coh"

Salida - pronounced Sal - I - da
(not sal - ee - da)

I'm not from there but I had a friend from northeast Texas. Two of these examples aren't place names but give you a good idea of the accent. Oil was pronounced "ol" as in bowl. Louisiana was pronounced "Loo-zee-ANA". "Quit it" was "Qui" as in "quit" without the "t".

I'm from Georgia and we travel west at least once a year, but, I was told that I wasn't pronouncing Moab UT incorrectly.
Is is Moe - ab Moe (like one of the 3 stooges), then ab (as in rock hard abs), or is it Mo-ahh-bee?
I really don't want to wait till we get there and ask the locals. Thanks for any help you can give me.

According to my source, it's the first (MOE-ab). Enjoy your trip!

Thank you so much language hat. MOE-ab is how I've been pronouncing it, so, for once I guess this GA girl was right! LOL
I have enjoyed this site and will return in the future probably with more questions.

I had the good fortune to grow up just across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco in an area full of pronunciation hazards for newbies (such as out-of-town newscasters, who can be outed immediately upon arrival by the way in which they mangle local names):
- Marin County's name isn't pronounced like that of actor Cheech Marin (MARR-in), but rather it's Ma-RINN.
- my city of San Rafael isn't pronounced in the Spanish way (Rah-fy-EL), but rather it's Ra-FELL.
- my street, DuBois, though it's named after an early French settler, isn't pronounced Du-BWAH, but rather it's Doo-BOYCE.
Folks in the Bay Area also tend to be clear in their pronunciations of local city Novato (Nuh-VOT-oh, VOT rhyming with fought) versus the state of Nevada (Nuh-VAD-ah, VAD rhyming with glad) - which is distinct from the usual Spanish pronunciation of that name (Neh-VOD-ah, rhyming with odd); doing a web search, I see that Pres. Bush mistakenly used this pronunciation on his first trip to the state, thereby raising some hackles.
Of course, The West is full of Spanish place names which have gotten mangled by the Anglos in the last 150-odd years. For more San Francisco oddities, there are:
- Bernal Heights (BURN'l), which differs from what I would imagine to be the the normal Spanish pronunciation of Bur-NAL.
- Arguello Blvd is pronounced Ar-GWELL-oh, not the normal Ar-GWAY-oh (since 'll' is a unique letter in the Spanish alphabet).

I am a native of Washington State and would like to first set two records straight: Spokane is pronounces "Spow-can", not "Spow-Kane" and Anacortes is "Anna-cortiss" or "Anna-court-us" with no greater emphasis - not "Anna-cortez". So now two questions: 1. I grew up hearing the lake up at Snoqualmie Pass called "Lake Ca-Cheee-ss" (kinda like a sneeze) though it's spelled Keechelus Does any native know the proper pronunciation? 2. For those Californians out there...is the city of Lodi pronounced "Low-Die" or "Low-Dee"???

Lodi is definitely LOW-die. I'm afraid I can't help you with Keechelus, though; any other Washingtonians around?

I'm surprised the Lodi question is still coming up. Way back in 1969 the group Creedence Clearwater Revival had a song entitled "Lodi" (about the town) on their album "Green River," which reached the #1 position in the sales charts. On its own, as a single, the song hit #52 in the charts. It got a good amount of both AM and FM airplay at the time, but I guess you had to be there!

in oklahoma we have:
poteau - POE-dough (kinda like play doh) not "p-TOE" this is repeatedly mispronounced by weatherforecasters

durant - DOO-rant, not duhr-rant

miami - mi-am-muh,

possum hollow - possum holler (seriously)

keota - not kee-OH-tuh, but kee-OH-dee

lequire - LEE-choir, not la-QUEER

bokoshe - buh-KOE-shee not boke-a-shay

tahlihina - tahl-li-HANE-uh or leave the "uh" off

chickasha - chick-uh-shay

skiatook - SKY-took

okemah - UH-kee-muh, not okie-mah

adair - AID-air not AY-dare

my fam is all from missouri and we pronounce it mih-zuhr-ree. we make fun of ppl who say missourUH

Yeah, HOUSE-TON is the New York way for Houston Street and GREN-ITCH for Greenwich Village...well the village is really what locals call it. Another thing that annoys me is when people pronounce the 'S' at the end of Illinois. It's ILL-I-NOY not ILL-I-NOISE.