As a student in Japan last year I was mortified when I mixed up sonkeigo and kenjogo when speaking to my advisor. It was somewhat comforting, as I looked in the bookstore at the multitude of books on the subject written for native speakers of Japanese, to realize that I was not alone in this.

"Japanese, perhaps more than any other language, has long taken account of social standing."

I always thought Korean had just as much a sense of social standing as Japanese, if not more....? For verb endings, I know they have an elaborate system of speech levels.

My heart would sink whenever it was time for a lesson on keigo. If it's difficult for so many Japanese people, it's a nightmare for foreigners who are trying to learn keigo in the classroom -- in the absence of almost all the requisite social cues.

If keigo is falling out of use among young Japanese in general, it seems logical to assume that young Japanese women are less likely to use onna kotoba, traditional "women's language".

I used to know a Japanese-born woman who married a GI during the 50's and spent the rest of her life in the US. She had made friends with an American woman in the neighborhood and the two quickly became very close. After they had known each other awhile, the woman I knew (in her fifties) found out that the young-looking woman she was talking to was actually 20 years older than she was. My friend was utterly mortified -- she's been assuming equality. I'm sure that her friend didn't even notice.

Communication vs education vs transfusion of ideas vs reality : The balance of power vs practical inventive Knowledge: change in priviledges based on real earnings for society: This can be seen in the changes in so many societies[cultures] thru the use and change in language : For Example dropping of Greek and Latin in the UK schools has change the tone of the mass communication of the media print and visual. Also changed the Higher education results. Better / worse(r)? Economics is the Motor of change? just a thought from under the poop:

Interestingly, I've met several Japanese who have remarked to me that older Taiwanese (including many Taiwanese Aborigines), speak "better Japanese" than they themselves do. What they mean, of course, is that Taiwanese use honorifics all the time. Because of the Colonial relations under which Taiwanese lived, it was better to err on the side of formality than informality. What this means is that many people often "hypercorrected" and used overly formal speech when speaking to their own family members - which would be akward and embarassing to a Japanese.

I don't fully understand how Japanese honorifics work, having never studied the langauge, but this makese sense to me.

Another thing I heard is that the reason that Javanese is so much more difficult to learn than Bahasa Indonesia is because of all the honorifics it requires.

As a native Japanese I compare the Japanese honorifics and the underlying age hierarchy to the infamous caste system of India. While nostalgia may be good to some, this archaic system must go.

If you care about the Japanese culture and people, you are welcome to help us change.

I agree that Japan would probably be better off without those things, but I don't really see how foreigners can do anything about it. It's up to Japanese to start rejecting them. But I wish you well in your struggle for progress!

Sometimes, I think the foreigner students would probablly know better about the keigo than Native Japanese speakers, because it has been taught in the class...

To tell you the truth, from my use of them and my sense of how there are used, I love them. I haven't been taught formally though but would love it if I could be. I believe that people should do whatever they believe is right or better in the interest of one's society and culture but, I know many cases where people can be easily embarrassed, offended, and maybe even horrified. That is simply a reaction of which might happen when talking to a person in normal human relations, it's that simple. Honorifics are words. Words are used to help one describe to others feelings, thoughts, and ideas that never would have been able to be shared otherwise. Honorifics are the same way. Honorifics are simply words, at least in this day and age, to describe how one truely feels for another, feels in the prescence of another, show respect for another, and so on. Of course with normal humans, we make mistakes, but then again these aren't facts they are beliefs. If someone is "mortified" by how they think you see them in the usage of honorifics, simply explain why you feel the need to use that honorific and ask them if they wished to called something else or nothing at all. Also with words such as these there is a wide expanse to the definitions and meanings to which people take these words. They are something ingeniously made to be used beautifully and brilliantlly. If the Japanese truely wish to be rid of such words then that is their prerogative, not mine. But I do know this much. I, will continue to use them at my own discretion. Thank you all for your time.